This was our scripture lesson in church this morning. He focused on the refreshing- like rain falling on parched ground. All you can do is try, fail, and try some more.
Except I don't think you ever succeed- at least not until after you die. Maybe the sin changes, or the times in between your sins get longer, but faith is a journey. You're going to make some missteps along the way!
Well, there's no success, really. I mean, you can try and try as hard as you can... but you're still gonna fall flat on your face every now and then. *sigh* I do that on a daily basis.
Question: What if you have no interest at all in religion? Personally, I despise it. Not the spirituality, just the organized churchy bit. The "Our version is the only correct version and all others are false" bs. Mind you, this comes from a guy that now refuses to ever step foot in a church again. I'm a former baptist minister. And pretty much don't see any use at all for religion in peoples lives other than to use as a method to control them out of fear and mental manipulation.
Spirituality on the other hand, I fully support. Being close to God is a wonderful thing, and from my experiences across this country, he sure isn't found in some building, nor meted out in tiny, self plucked/chosen fragments to suit whatever agenda he has that day by a preacher either.
As you can see, i'm not a fan of organized religion.
Neither am I. But that doesn't mean that God isn't good. God's great, as long as you allow Him into your life. I don't remember where it says in the Bible that you MUST have a church...although the Old Testament and the Hebrew texts talk about the original temple and rebuilding it.
Dragon, I too am not a fan of organized religion for personal reasons, but I still read the scriptures and still enjoy the fellowship and interaction with like minds and spirits. I do not think you have to even believe in everything religious people do believe in to glean the wisdom from scripture . . . for instance, let us pretend that you had an addiction to pornography and that it was somehow adversely affecting your relationships or your mind . . . (just an example). In order to gain control of that problem, you would have to repent - turn the other way - go the other way and therefore be released from that issue. You don't necessarily have to refer to it as "sin" and you don't have to be a Christian for it to take a toll on your life.
Of course, you said you are a person of faith - so that makes accepting that certain ideals were put in place for your happiness and well-being a little easier.
The hard part for me was always the man-made dogma that was crammed down my throat.
I think religion has done as much to lead people away from God as it has to bring people to him. I'm not going to down you if you're not into the churchy thing. I do think that you probably weren't in the right church, and there is one out there that will meet your needs somewhere. But there's a big difference between religion, theology and belief. Belief is what is important.
I'd love to know what happened in church that caused you to totally run. Especially if you were a minister. I'm just curious- you don't have to tell me. But I really try hard to understand where people are coming from, what makes people want to go to church and what turns them off. Because I'd love to turn as many people on as possible! (ok, that didn't come out right!) and step one is trying to figure out how not to run them off.
And Abs, the early church only allowed a very few people into the temple!
I can't go to churches like this. There's a little Baptist church down the road that I have had to go to twice for funerals. I want to hold my hands over my ears the whole time. Makes me want to run fast and never look back!
lol. When I was in Seminary I asked questions. A LOT of questions. I was told to stop asking questions. I got my ordination and told them to take a flying leap off a very high bridge. Never looked back. I decided that God was not to be found around people who told you to stop asking questions. Especially as God himself tells us to question. to seek. to study and learn.
Yeah - I attended a church like that, too. Plus, I am bit heretical in my views (ack - that is an understatement). I do believe that man can have a relationship with God, but I also think that churches candy coat scripture and then melt it down with a blast of fire and damnation.
I get that ... But, as Proverbs says, "There is a way which seems right unto man, but the end thereof is the way of death."
That death is spiritual - not physical (though I suppose it can be both) . . . I have had moments in my life when I felt spiritually numb and questioned everything. I guess it just comes down to what you believe - not what the church believes - and if you do believe in God, are you at peace with that? The church won't save you.
My church is awesome- mostly about challenging ourselves to understand, to love, to do better. Mixed with a good dose of how incredible God is. Even the scripture today, the focus wasn't on repent, but on receiving the refreshment that comes with a clean heart.
I have friends who have been through seminary who have said the same thing. They tried to take away the God they knew. Made them question their faith then told them not to ask questions.
One of the things that has always annoyed me is a preacher that takes a single passage from the Bible and twists it's meaning to what he/she wants it to mean. But when you read it in context, the meaning is totally different and sometimes exactly opposite of what the preacher has stated it means.
We were told that we had to 'interpret' Gods word because he had hidden the meanings. My experience though is that the meanings are pretty plain if you read them in context. The meanings are only hidden to people who think they are hidden and have to be found and so they read what they want into them and claim it's from God and that this is what God demands we think/live/act.
It was an unusual revelation to me when I realized the best way to 'hide a meaning' is not to hide it at all. The only book of the Bible where the meanings were deliberately closed up is Revelations, and that had it's own purpose for the requirements of prophecy. Unfortunately the leading 'powers' decided it also applied to the rest of the Bible and so began the slide into 'Interpretation' and the apostasy that it's causing.
I'll give you a good example of that. Take the above passage. Verse 20 continues... "and that He may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you- even Jesus." Now what does that mean? There are several Christs? I'm thinking something got a little bit lost in the translations. So I'm not going to focus on those two words- even Jesus. I'm sticking with the bigger meaning.
In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth and the Earth was formless <--- incorrect translation
In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth and the Earth became formless <---- more accurate translation
whats it mean?
That in the original creation, God created Earth PERFECTLY and that at another time the Earth BECAME formless (destroyed).
How?
Ask yourself this. The Bible mentions several times of battles between the angels. Of Lucifer being driven out of heaven. Of him being the ruler of this world etc etc. Now.. look at the universe. Dead. Desolate so far as we can see. Except Earth. God is all powerful. WHY would he create a dead, empty, desolate, lifeless universe?
Answer: He wouldn't. So what could 'kill' the life of the universe He created? Lets look back to a massive, Titanic battle between Angels. Beings of incredible power beyond our imagination. Things can get pretty nasty in that type of situation.
We don't know how long the Universe has existed with any accuracy. Some few odd billions of years. We do know how long EARTHS RE-CREATION has existed though. A bit over 6000 years or so. This simple fact can explain the fossil record of Earth easily. Yet... when I brought this up in seminary I was told flatly. NO, the UNIVERSE has only existed 6000 years and any other possibility is blasphemy.
That was just one example of why I detest organized religion.
My husband has an issue when he's told this, too. And so do I. We don't really KNOW what time IS, except how WE, imperfect beings, keep time. So, who's to say that this didn't happen in what could have been billions of years to US, but maybe it could only be 10 years of God-time.
I'm impressed they were still teaching creationism in seminary! Not too many people agree that the earth is just over 6000 years old. I love reading Ken Ham and Kent Hovind materials. It makes so much more sense than evolution.
Scott could go on for hours on creationism. He knows all the facts. I just prefer to believe that God did it somehow. I don't need to know how or when. Just that He did!
Whats before it? Whats after it? Not just a few sentences either way, but the entire block of scripture leading upto it, and reading past it. The Context of the statement presents it's meaning in scripture, as well as the time frame of the writer and the events of the time as well.
You don't have to have much more than a loose and general idea of the historical events of the time in that area to add that facet to the scripture, but without it some very simple things can often be easily misunderstood and meanings seem to change because of it. That is another thing that has always bothered me about much of the organized religions. They fail to take into consideration events of the time scripture was written, and why it was written and because they are seeing things through the eyes of our current time, they lose meaning. They take meaning that isn't even relavant to the scripture at hand because they can't understand it as it was written from the writers perspective (if that makes any sense to you all)
God said "hmm I think this space needs stuff so lets make stuff to fill it". He did and it was Good. Thats about all I need to know about those particular details as well. :-)
This is Peter speaking to the Jews at Solomon's Colonnade. He is telling them that even though they killed Jesus he was raised from the dead. And it fulfilled God's prophesy through Moses, Samuel, and the prophets. Peter was trying to tell the people that their long- awaited Messiah had come. Oh- I get it! He is telling them that "even Jesus" could be their Christ that was appointed! Because it is in that place in the sentence, it takes on a different meaning.
I think a lot of the mistranslation and misunderstanding of the Scripture is that the languages it was written in and even though the experts translated it, if you didn't live in the time it was written, you're going to get a lot wrong.
But when you take something out of context, without knowing the bigger picture, it can easily be made to say something it really doesn't, or only say it partially while allowing for huge leeway in how it is 'interpreted'
*edit* and then the meaning can be totally misunderstood, or misrepresented to mean something it's not.
Sometimes people can get different things out of the same scripture. Doesn't mecessarily mean one of them is wrong. It may mean they're coming from different places.
I gave a talk on Naaman (2 kings 5) at the same time they were discussing him in a different class. My point was that Naaman didn't want to have to do anything to get God's blessing. The other discussion was about how he wanted some big light show- magic and mirrors. You could argue that he didn't want to get dirty. All would be right- or at least just as valid!
This particular line of passage as it sits is one of hope and offering from God, taken in context though it has an even deeper meaning of hope and offering.
It's been a while since I had a good conversation regarding the Bible that didn't turn into a major mess. Thank you all for respecting my opinions on the subject and being willing to discuss them openly and with dignity all around :-) It's encouraging to find people that can do this.
All of you are. It really is rare to find people willing to discuss the Bible w/o dogma tearing it apart and everything ending in a massive hissy phit of finger pointing and name calling.
dogma : believe as we tell you to believe and nothing else or it's a sin and your going to hell (basically organized religion used to push an agenda that really has nothing to do with God in the first place)
Goodnight. I gotta go to work tomorrow so I can keep affording my new hobby. (It's really an old hobby but my hubby lets me indulge now and then. lol!)
Amen!
ReplyDeleteNow if I can just STOP making the same mistakes, committing the same sins again, then I'd be doing good. *sigh*
ReplyDeleteThis was our scripture lesson in church this morning. He focused on the refreshing- like rain falling on parched ground. All you can do is try, fail, and try some more.
ReplyDeleteThat's so true, about keep trying, failing, trying again until you succeed.
ReplyDeleteExcept I don't think you ever succeed- at least not until after you die. Maybe the sin changes, or the times in between your sins get longer, but faith is a journey. You're going to make some missteps along the way!
ReplyDeleteWell, there's no success, really. I mean, you can try and try as hard as you can... but you're still gonna fall flat on your face every now and then. *sigh* I do that on a daily basis.
ReplyDeleteThe word repent is equal to the phrase, "about face", meaning to turn and go the opposite direction ... that your sins might be left behind ... :)
ReplyDeleteProblem is, we want to keep looking over our shoulder. *sigh*
ReplyDeleteThen we get turned into pillars of salt.
ReplyDeleteWell hopefully not. But if you don't watch where you're going, you can stumble and fall.
ReplyDeleteI still like the refreshing part. I need refreshing!
Question: What if you have no interest at all in religion? Personally, I despise it. Not the spirituality, just the organized churchy bit. The "Our version is the only correct version and all others are false" bs. Mind you, this comes from a guy that now refuses to ever step foot in a church again. I'm a former baptist minister. And pretty much don't see any use at all for religion in peoples lives other than to use as a method to control them out of fear and mental manipulation.
ReplyDeleteSpirituality on the other hand, I fully support. Being close to God is a wonderful thing, and from my experiences across this country, he sure isn't found in some building, nor meted out in tiny, self plucked/chosen fragments to suit whatever agenda he has that day by a preacher either.
As you can see, i'm not a fan of organized religion.
Neither am I. But that doesn't mean that God isn't good. God's great, as long as you allow Him into your life. I don't remember where it says in the Bible that you MUST have a church...although the Old Testament and the Hebrew texts talk about the original temple and rebuilding it.
ReplyDeleteDragon, I too am not a fan of organized religion for personal reasons, but I still read the scriptures and still enjoy the fellowship and interaction with like minds and spirits. I do not think you have to even believe in everything religious people do believe in to glean the wisdom from scripture . . . for instance, let us pretend that you had an addiction to pornography and that it was somehow adversely affecting your relationships or your mind . . . (just an example). In order to gain control of that problem, you would have to repent - turn the other way - go the other way and therefore be released from that issue. You don't necessarily have to refer to it as "sin" and you don't have to be a Christian for it to take a toll on your life.
ReplyDeleteOf course, you said you are a person of faith - so that makes accepting that certain ideals were put in place for your happiness and well-being a little easier.
The hard part for me was always the man-made dogma that was crammed down my throat.
Actually, when I look at what I read, it sounds pretty negative so let me be more specific.
ReplyDeleteSpirituality: The act of finding God via your heart and His guidance(sp?)
Religion: Believe as we tell you to believe or your going to burn forever in unending agony.
I think religion has done as much to lead people away from God as it has to bring people to him. I'm not going to down you if you're not into the churchy thing. I do think that you probably weren't in the right church, and there is one out there that will meet your needs somewhere. But there's a big difference between religion, theology and belief. Belief is what is important.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to know what happened in church that caused you to totally run. Especially if you were a minister. I'm just curious- you don't have to tell me. But I really try hard to understand where people are coming from, what makes people want to go to church and what turns them off. Because I'd love to turn as many people on as possible! (ok, that didn't come out right!) and step one is trying to figure out how not to run them off.
And Abs, the early church only allowed a very few people into the temple!
I can't go to churches like this. There's a little Baptist church down the road that I have had to go to twice for funerals. I want to hold my hands over my ears the whole time. Makes me want to run fast and never look back!
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know. I need to read more about that.
ReplyDeleteAnd those "you're going to burn in hell forever" churches scare me.
Not my type of worship. Actually, I don't know how they can call that worship. Guilt, fear, maybe. Worship? No.
ReplyDeletelol. When I was in Seminary I asked questions. A LOT of questions. I was told to stop asking questions. I got my ordination and told them to take a flying leap off a very high bridge. Never looked back. I decided that God was not to be found around people who told you to stop asking questions. Especially as God himself tells us to question. to seek. to study and learn.
ReplyDeleteexactly. It's not worship. it's mind control via fear.
ReplyDeleteYeah - I attended a church like that, too. Plus, I am bit heretical in my views (ack - that is an understatement). I do believe that man can have a relationship with God, but I also think that churches candy coat scripture and then melt it down with a blast of fire and damnation.
ReplyDeleteI get that ... But, as Proverbs says, "There is a way which seems right unto man, but the end thereof is the way of death."
That death is spiritual - not physical (though I suppose it can be both) . . . I have had moments in my life when I felt spiritually numb and questioned everything. I guess it just comes down to what you believe - not what the church believes - and if you do believe in God, are you at peace with that? The church won't save you.
My church is awesome- mostly about challenging ourselves to understand, to love, to do better. Mixed with a good dose of how incredible God is. Even the scripture today, the focus wasn't on repent, but on receiving the refreshment that comes with a clean heart.
ReplyDeleteI question everything . . . Rusty calls it chewing on my entrails. (shrugs)
ReplyDeleteI have friends who have been through seminary who have said the same thing. They tried to take away the God they knew. Made them question their faith then told them not to ask questions.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things that has always annoyed me is a preacher that takes a single passage from the Bible and twists it's meaning to what he/she wants it to mean. But when you read it in context, the meaning is totally different and sometimes exactly opposite of what the preacher has stated it means.
ReplyDeleteWe were told that we had to 'interpret' Gods word because he had hidden the meanings. My experience though is that the meanings are pretty plain if you read them in context. The meanings are only hidden to people who think they are hidden and have to be found and so they read what they want into them and claim it's from God and that this is what God demands we think/live/act.
It was an unusual revelation to me when I realized the best way to 'hide a meaning' is not to hide it at all. The only book of the Bible where the meanings were deliberately closed up is Revelations, and that had it's own purpose for the requirements of prophecy. Unfortunately the leading 'powers' decided it also applied to the rest of the Bible and so began the slide into 'Interpretation' and the apostasy that it's causing.
I'll give you a good example of that. Take the above passage. Verse 20 continues... "and that He may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you- even Jesus." Now what does that mean? There are several Christs? I'm thinking something got a little bit lost in the translations. So I'm not going to focus on those two words- even Jesus. I'm sticking with the bigger meaning.
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth and the Earth was formless <--- incorrect translation
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth and the Earth became formless <---- more accurate translation
whats it mean?
That in the original creation, God created Earth PERFECTLY and that at another time the Earth BECAME formless (destroyed).
How?
Ask yourself this. The Bible mentions several times of battles between the angels. Of Lucifer being driven out of heaven. Of him being the ruler of this world etc etc. Now.. look at the universe. Dead. Desolate so far as we can see. Except Earth. God is all powerful. WHY would he create a dead, empty, desolate, lifeless universe?
Answer: He wouldn't. So what could 'kill' the life of the universe He created? Lets look back to a massive, Titanic battle between Angels. Beings of incredible power beyond our imagination. Things can get pretty nasty in that type of situation.
We don't know how long the Universe has existed with any accuracy. Some few odd billions of years. We do know how long EARTHS RE-CREATION has existed though. A bit over 6000 years or so. This simple fact can explain the fossil record of Earth easily. Yet... when I brought this up in seminary I was told flatly. NO, the UNIVERSE has only existed 6000 years and any other possibility is blasphemy.
That was just one example of why I detest organized religion.
My husband has an issue when he's told this, too. And so do I. We don't really KNOW what time IS, except how WE, imperfect beings, keep time. So, who's to say that this didn't happen in what could have been billions of years to US, but maybe it could only be 10 years of God-time.
ReplyDeleteI'm impressed they were still teaching creationism in seminary! Not too many people agree that the earth is just over 6000 years old. I love reading Ken Ham and Kent Hovind materials. It makes so much more sense than evolution.
ReplyDeleteI was in my early twenties then so about 20 odd years ago.
ReplyDeleteScott could go on for hours on creationism. He knows all the facts. I just prefer to believe that God did it somehow. I don't need to know how or when. Just that He did!
ReplyDeleteExactly! That's why I don't worry about it.
ReplyDeleteWhats before it? Whats after it? Not just a few sentences either way, but the entire block of scripture leading upto it, and reading past it. The Context of the statement presents it's meaning in scripture, as well as the time frame of the writer and the events of the time as well.
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to have much more than a loose and general idea of the historical events of the time in that area to add that facet to the scripture, but without it some very simple things can often be easily misunderstood and meanings seem to change because of it. That is another thing that has always bothered me about much of the organized religions. They fail to take into consideration events of the time scripture was written, and why it was written and because they are seeing things through the eyes of our current time, they lose meaning. They take meaning that isn't even relavant to the scripture at hand because they can't understand it as it was written from the writers perspective (if that makes any sense to you all)
God said "hmm I think this space needs stuff so lets make stuff to fill it". He did and it was Good. Thats about all I need to know about those particular details as well. :-)
ReplyDeleteThis is Peter speaking to the Jews at Solomon's Colonnade. He is telling them that even though they killed Jesus he was raised from the dead. And it fulfilled God's prophesy through Moses, Samuel, and the prophets. Peter was trying to tell the people that their long- awaited Messiah had come. Oh- I get it! He is telling them that "even Jesus" could be their Christ that was appointed! Because it is in that place in the sentence, it takes on a different meaning.
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of the mistranslation and misunderstanding of the Scripture is that the languages it was written in and even though the experts translated it, if you didn't live in the time it was written, you're going to get a lot wrong.
ReplyDeleteThat's why Sam is right- you have to get the big picture and not get stuck on a few words.
ReplyDeleteExactly. What precedes a particular line of scripture, and what comes after it, and where/what/why it was made gives it's meaning.
ReplyDeleteBut when you take something out of context, without knowing the bigger picture, it can easily be made to say something it really doesn't, or only say it partially while allowing for huge leeway in how it is 'interpreted'
ReplyDelete*edit* and then the meaning can be totally misunderstood, or misrepresented to mean something it's not.
I've found that certain scriptures mean something to me, but not the same thing to anyone else around me.
ReplyDeleteSometimes people can get different things out of the same scripture. Doesn't mecessarily mean one of them is wrong. It may mean they're coming from different places.
ReplyDeleteI gave a talk on Naaman (2 kings 5) at the same time they were discussing him in a different class. My point was that Naaman didn't want to have to do anything to get God's blessing. The other discussion was about how he wanted some big light show- magic and mirrors. You could argue that he didn't want to get dirty. All would be right- or at least just as valid!
This particular line of passage as it sits is one of hope and offering from God, taken in context though it has an even deeper meaning of hope and offering.
ReplyDeleteIt's been a while since I had a good conversation regarding the Bible that didn't turn into a major mess. Thank you all for respecting my opinions on the subject and being willing to discuss them openly and with dignity all around :-) It's encouraging to find people that can do this.
ReplyDeleteDish is a great person. =D
ReplyDeleteAll of you are. It really is rare to find people willing to discuss the Bible w/o dogma tearing it apart and everything ending in a massive hissy phit of finger pointing and name calling.
ReplyDeleteWhat's dogma?
ReplyDeletedogma : believe as we tell you to believe and nothing else or it's a sin and your going to hell (basically organized religion used to push an agenda that really has nothing to do with God in the first place)
ReplyDeleteThis will probably be more confusing than not, but here is a wiki link that explains it some
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma
OH, well... Never mind.
ReplyDeleteUm, isn't that kinda like politics too? Only it's not you'll burn in Hell but we're right and you're wrong no matter what?
Anyway, Dish has some pretty cool conversations around here. Besides, why argue? Arguing doesn't solve anything.
yup that is a pretty good example of dogma you gave lol.
ReplyDeleteCool beans. I got it then.
ReplyDelete*whispers* "By George I think she's got it!"
lol!
Goodnight. I gotta go to work tomorrow so I can keep affording my new hobby. (It's really an old hobby but my hubby lets me indulge now and then. lol!)
Anyway, great conversation.
Awww that is SO Beautiful!!!!!
ReplyDeleteHuggs
Janet xx
I enjoyed it too, Sam. I like trying to understand the way people think and that is hard to do if you stop listening and start arguing!
ReplyDelete*cough* Gothard *cough cough*
ReplyDelete*slaps Steve on the back*
ReplyDeleteYou ok there? Get choked on some literalism?
Whew. Thanks. I had a few fragments stuck in my throat.
ReplyDelete