I'm just posting this to a select few who know me well and also who I trust to give me their real opinions.
Ok, so you know that I've said over and over that Scott feels like my soulmate. I'm so comfortable with him that we can finish each others' sentences, often knowing what the other is thinking without spoken communication. But I've never really told you what is holding me back from making the relationship more.
First, I think I have told you about the strange deja vu feelings I get sometimes- he'll do something just like the ex would, and it hits me full force. Been here. Then, he has shared a lot of his personal problems with me, the tops of the list being his alcoholism and his financial difficulties. Ex was an uncontrolled alcoholic, and still can't manage money at all. Scott's been on the wagon and finances are a little different, in that he's a broke college student trying to make ends meet, not a poor manager of what he does have.
Other things are little- the both are UNC fans (who I don't like!); both love playing basketball; the thinning hair and blue eyes; and, almost the deal-breaker- both really need a mother or a personal manager. A rescuer. Which I have done once and don't want to do again. So I've stayed at arms length.
4:43 am this morning the phone rings. Scott has fallen off the wagon- big time. He worked a double last night and when I talked to him at 10:30pm, he was stopping to eat and going home to crash. Instead, one of his friends who he hasn't seen in awhile calls and wants him to meet him at a bar. No telling how late they stayed out, except bars here close at 2am so it couldn't be much later than that. Apparently, a deputy woke him up in his car- halfway home- at 4:30am and asked who could come get him. Of course I did (he can't stay, and he gets a DWI if he drives- which he's probably really lucky that he didn't get anyway! Because he doesn't know where he was or how he got there.)
He's soul searching today- really wants to get back on the wagon and stay there, but fears he won't. I'm reeling with my enabler tendencies- they're trying to work overtime, and I have done a good job squelching them to this point. My dilemma- do I stay or do I go? He is my best friend, and I really want to help however I can. However, it feels like the same cycle I went through with my ex. And I do NOT want to go there again. Can I help without enabling? I don't know. Should I, or should I watch as he potentially crashes? I really do love him, but I can't let myself love him the way I would like to. He is a really good guy, and one night doesn't change that, and he is a Christian, which is way more than the ex ever was. So I don't want it to sound like he's rotten, just maybe a little lost. I just want to keep my eyes wide open in this relationship, not sweep things under the carpet like I did with my ex.
Ok, bless you for reading this far. Somehow this was cathartic just getting it out here. So whatever you think (and Kat, I really respect what you're going to tell me, because you always seem to lean as far down the skeptical path as I lean down the trusting one), please help me see an outsider's point of view in all this.
You cant help him. You have to decide what you can live with tho and keep it at that point, no matter what he does. I had to do that too. Once he sees you mean it , he will go one of two ways.....either fix it because truthfully he is the only one who can or move on because he doesnt want to change. But what do you really want in a man?
ReplyDeleteHe will say things you wont like if you stick to what you want. Its part of their game to keep it going they way they want. But whatever you do, be prepared to lose him. Until you are ready to do that, you wont do what is right for you. I suggest also getting some books on codependency to help yourself. We enablers love to help others but dont do it for ourselves. (yes I mean me, I am one too and I must walk the walk daily or get sucked back in). It does become easier tho over time. No one says you cant keep him around as a friend. But until he works out whatever this is....I wouldnt suggest more. Is he getting any help? While I know AA is good not everyone likes it. Perhaps some therapy instead but honestly unless he goes after it, it wont work anyway.
I have found that unless THEY want to fix the mess, they wont, they just give it lip service. Regardless tho, do what you have to, to take care of you or their drama will make you crazy again ( you know that from your ex). At some point you will get tired of the drama and either dump him or dump people from your life that do that. The good news is either way, you will be happier.
Ohhhh.... I know what he's done. Been there myself. You know how I feel about that. Art's the one who helped me a LOT to get back in control. And he still tells me, "You gotta love yourself before you can change!" Art's right on track with that one.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I'm glad that you went to get him because that shows he trusts you. There are programs that work (AA for one and my nephew swears by it.) The other thing is that you have to turn your back on "friends" that you realize aren't going to look out for your best interests (ie: NOT drinking). I've turned my back on many a person who left me to my own devices (meaning at a time when I wasn't strong enough to walk away myself from those devices of succumbing to the pull of the bottle).
Be there for him but don't coddle him. It sounds like he's got a good head on him, other than the fact that he met at a bar. It happens. I can't even walk into a bar without not being able to stop drinking, no matter who I'm with, therefore, I avoid bars. Little things like that make a major difference and he's got to be the one who recognizes the signs and what leads him to drink too much. (I know once I start in certain situations, I don't stop until I'm out cold... Therefore, AVOID that situation.)
This isn't easy for me to answer because I literally walked away from everyone that I knew at that point in my life. I try to avoid those situations as much as possible. *sigh* I'm not helping am I?
*hugs* As if that's going to help, either.
Be his friend. That's all I can say. I agree with the arm's length...
Thanks you two- I knew I was asking the right people. Sea, thanks for understanding about being an enabler. I do recognize it and that is the first step. I have spent the last year and a half trying to be strong and trying to work out what I will and will not put up with. So far he's not crossed the line. But I'm doing better this time- recognizing it and analyzing it (maybe too much) but trying to keep my head about me.
ReplyDeleteAbby, thanks for showing me what he is seeing. He knows he needs to cul some people from his life- I just don't think he'll do it. They've been there for so long. We did have a good talk today about the people you surround yourself with. I asked "do they stoke your fire or lead you away from it? Because if you don't want to get burned, stick with the people who lead you away." He agrees, but I don't know if he'll do it. He wants to, but I don't know if he wants it bad enough.
And you're right Sea, I can't do it for him. I can only be here to support and listen. I just don't want to get stuck in his muck.
Thanks you two- I knew I was asking the right people. Sea, thanks for understanding about being an enabler. I do recognize it and that is the first step. I have spent the last year and a half trying to be strong and trying to work out what I will and will not put up with. So far he's not crossed the line. But I'm doing better this time- recognizing it and analyzing it (maybe too much) but trying to keep my head about me.
ReplyDeleteAbby, thanks for showing me what he is seeing. He knows he needs to cul some people from his life- I just don't think he'll do it. They've been there for so long. We did have a good talk today about the people you surround yourself with. I asked "do they stoke your fire or lead you away from it? Because if you don't want to get burned, stick with the people who lead you away." He agrees, but I don't know if he'll do it. He wants to, but I don't know if he wants it bad enough.
And you're right Sea, I can't do it for him. I can only be here to support and listen. I just don't want to get stuck in his muck.
momma they will occasionally fall off the wagon tho till they figure out what their triggers are. Im living with that here. But the truth of it all is unless they want to know that stuff and willingly work on it, there is nothing you can do. Thats why I said, stay at least friends for now if you feel you can handle it but do take care of you. Otherwise you will keep getting sucked into his stuff and be back to where you were with the ex. Realize tho while you can extend a hand (like the other nite) , you must put a limit for yourself of how much your willing to do and for how long. Enablers do not have boundaries, thats why we get sucked in. We love and want to help but sometimes the best thing to do to help someone, is nothing. Hugs.
ReplyDeleteBTW dont know if your aware of them but Melody Beattie has a couple great books about codependency if you would like to read them.
ReplyDeleteSometimes it's hard to watch because things will get so bad that their entire life will be in ruin (like mine was) before they realize they have to stop and draw those boundaries. I hope that he realizes this before anything worse happens.
ReplyDelete*hugs*
Listen to Sea. She's a smart lady. Me? I can just tell you what it's like. And yeah, being a "hard ass" sometimes helps. Art got mad once and literally spanked me like a kid for being stupid.
I see so much of myself in you and I know I would be doing the same things.
ReplyDeleteI'm just forging a friendship with someone who is in a very similar situation.... and I'm terrified.
But he's a good person, and has a good heart.... he's just a little lost right now.
I agree that you will deal with what you can handle. He makes his choices and has to answer to the consequences. I do know that addictions are an every day struggle..... 24/7.... day in and day out and that never goes away.
You can't mother him and you can't protect him. Well... you can... but what does that leave you with? You need to know that you can count on him as much as he can count on you.
What if you were sick last night? Or one of the kids were sick? And you had to call him? He wouldn't have been there for you... he wouldn't have been able to drive you anywhere or help take care of you or anyone else.
Those are the kinds of things that you will have to think about and worry about.
Only you know what your answers are. Personally, I believe that everyone deserves a second, third or even fourth chance.... but everyone is different.
For now, make sure you are taking care of yourself as much as you can and put yourself first when it's important. The rest of the time you can listen and be there for him when he needs you.
Hopefully, he'll get his act back together and find himself again.
*hugs*
I struggle with being too tender, compassionate and sometimes too willing to give more than I should. The pastor here said once, "Never feel guilty for loving someone."
ReplyDeleteSometimes I think a person has to make tough choices, but I will tell you this ... love will sooner cause you to lay it at the feet of the Father - than it will allow you to build a wall. I am at a point where I believe the only good we have inside of us - any of us - is in the form of what we sacrifice for others. of course ... we CANNOT sacrifice ourselves or our loved ones ... Yet - I asked myself the other day, if no one cared - if no one stood by - who would there be?
I don't think it is okay to purposely place ourselves in destructive situations ... But I think the questions above are valid.
Wow, you guys are great! Just letting me know I'm not alone and not the only one who acts like this is a big help. Kat, you're right about laying it at the Father's feet- I've done a lot of praying and a lot of soul-searching today. I go full circle- I can be there for him- if he sticks with me I can help him with this- I can't fix him- I can't count on a life with him- I don't want to go thru this again- I can't imagine not having him in my life.... And the thoughts keep spinning.
ReplyDeleteI know he needs to hit bottom. He won't make the changes otherwise. He did AA years ago and now thinks he can do it on his own. He's never found a group here. He has talked about Celebrate Recovery, who his counselor recommended, but he hasn't followed thru with it. Again, he thinks he has it under control- until it isn't under control.
*sigh* thanks for listening and understanding. I am so happy to have great friends!
Oh and Sea, thanks for the book suggestion. I'll look for them!
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is love him - pray for him - be there when he needs you, but don't enable and don't allow him to think you could ever accept that life. Sometimes I think loves does have to stand defiantly behind it's boundaries, but be willing to give what is allowed. It's something you do have to give to God. Addictions are hard ... Unfortunately, you can't fix that one (as you said).
ReplyDeleteThere must be 2 Kats here...? Was I the one you were referring to in the last paragraph? Cause I don't lay anything anywhere...anyway---
ReplyDeleteI've always wondered what was holding you back. You are SUCH a smart woman. I am an enabler too, and the only way I could avoid falling into the old trap was to stay alone. I attract people who "need". And I need to be needed to give me value. It's a vicious cycle. The fact you can see it is extraordinary on your part.
The thing I've admired about Scott is, he gives back. If he didn't, you know I would have been sending voodoo curses his way (kidding) (well, kinda). I didn't know all of those similarities to the ex...but it makes sense. You loved the shitbox too once. So those same things will hit a spark again.
Scott seems a step above though. And he isn't perfect (nearly, but not) so it stands to reason he can't be a pillar of strength all the time. That may be where you fit into his life. You seem to be. At least for him anyway. Doubts for yourself...he probably doesn't see that.
Alcoholism is a battle I am told. All the time. And knowing he has that demon to fight...how do you feel about someone you have seen fighting it? He is trying. He's bound to fail occasionally. I guess you have to stand back again, and be his friend, and watch some more. Friends help friends. He hasn't overstepped that area yet, except maybe in your heart. He doesn't have to know about your compartmentalizing this relationship.
I would not have had the inner fortitude to get this far with him without becoming my usual diapering self. I am full of admiration for you. My thought---talk to him about it. Lay it out like you did with us. Tell him he scared the shit out of you by doing this. See what he says. If he doesn't say what you hoped, you at least have a friend. Seeing similarities in a man you love compared to another man you loved is all relative. Good things will be the same! When the bad things start creeping in is when I'd go on red alert again.
I know I haven't helped. I am thinking of how I'd handle it---if I had allowed myself to get that close to something with balls again.
Ooooh! Kat! That stuff will bite you in your backside! DON'T DO IT! (I'm serious.)
ReplyDeleteShe said it all perfectly!!!!
ReplyDeleteHahaha...I know it. Harm none, all that stuff. Don't worry about me. If I do something, it's well thought out.
ReplyDeleteActually they are- can you believe I have three good online friends who go by Kat? (that's TSBlackmoon's name if you don't know her!) But I was thinking of you when I wrote the last original paragraph- you were the one from the beginning who kept warning me! Actually, that may have helped some. I know he isn't perfect, and neither am I. I did tell him he scared the shit out of me (my exact words!), especially when I'm on the phone with a police officer trying to figure out where he is. It is a wonder he didn't kill someone. It's a wonder he didn't kill himself. It's a wonder he didn't get a ticket. He was lucky, and he may not be next time.
ReplyDeleteI know it is the enabler in me- I am itching to fix it! And I know I can't- but there is still this small voice that says "yes you can" and really wants to. I have to work to shut her up. Because I know only he can fix him. I'm scared he won't, or I'm scared that, like Abby said, it won't happen until he hits bottom. And it is so hard for me to sit around and watch someone hit bottom. I want to throw out a net to catch them, when the best thing for them in the long run is to let them hit.
Thanks once again- you guys have made me feel so much better! And Kat (in NY), thanks for saying that you're full of admiration for me- I don't feel very admirable, but you all make me feel stronger. I can do what is best for me and my family, even if I don't like it. And I'm going to check out those books, Sea!
I don't truly know. He isn't a violent drunk- actually, he gets really sweet and loving. The ex just used it to function. Of course, the ex didn't fight it- he embraced it. Watching Scott fight it is tough, because it is his demon, and I can't even understand it. I have related some of it to the way I feel about food, but I think even that is different. I have to eat to live. (I don't have to eat the wrong things, but it isn't like you can just quit eating.) I know for it to work, he has to totally give it up. Somehow he has convinced himself that he can have a glass or two every now and then. And he can and stop. But sometimes he can't. I don't know, it's confusing (probably because I don't understand it) but I do know he will eventually have to succumb to it or decide he can't have a drop.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I understand, that's how they leave doors open to go back to it if they want. Still in control. I have only know drug addiction from my ex...and he was ALWAYS in control and could do anything he wanted any time he wanted he said. Right. Doesn't work that way. But you couldn't tell him that, and anything that happened was my fault. I pushed him. I was no fun. I was I was I was....all an excuse.
ReplyDeleteScott sounds like he's aware, but just hasn't gotten to the bottom. He may never get that bad!! I wish I knew how to fix it for you (yeah, I know what I just said.) Enablers Anonymous.
From some of the comments here, we could start a group? Wanna be the VP? LOL!
ReplyDeleteI know that the idea of "never" doing something again- especially something you like- is scary! It would be like me saying I'm never eating cake again! I don't like the idea of giving it up totally! I do know enough about addictions to know that you have to take it one day at a time- today, I'm not eating a piece of cake. Then tomorrow, you do the same thing. Problem is, you find a weak moment where someone put a piece in front of you, and you forget that promise.
ReplyDeleteyeah...I guess that's why I've chosen my road. I apparently like to eat controlling abusive cake.
ReplyDeleteThey will fall off the wagon now and then. I guess the trick is to see how far they fall and what they do about it and how often it happens. If I dont see any changes I figure they dont really care to change it. If it happens too much, Its simply not what I want in my life. I will let go of the person. Nobody says you stop loving them but at some point you must put yourself first. The sad fact is everyone is on their own journey and you cannot fix them, only you. How much stress, problems or abuse do you want to put yourself thru for anyone? How do you want to live your own life?
ReplyDeletelol! Still... just be careful. I'm not much into the other religions/practices... but if you do bad things, it will get you. I firmly believe in that. (So I do bad stuff anyway and it bites me in the butt when I'm least expecting it! lol!)
ReplyDelete*hugs*
I know you're careful. I just had to say that, though. It's that "mommy" thing I have and I worry about my friends here.
That's right where I'm at Dish. I can have a couple of glasses of wine at HOME or ONE drink with dinner at a restaurant. Otherwise, I'm a stupid, mean, nasty drunk.
ReplyDeleteI guess I'm then a "functioning" alcoholic. *sigh*
ReplyDeleteI had to chuckle at that. You're honest anyway. I get mean too. Not that I get loud mean (or drunk) but I am on the edge of being pissed off all the time, and I guess that lets me say what I think. I really don't think anyone says anything (or does anything) they wouldn't say or do sober..."if".
ReplyDeleteMy ex used that as an excuse all the time. "I was drunk". Well...he would do shitty things sober too. But then he had nothing to blame it on.
Watch out Abby- you're going to have to join "enablers anonymous" with a statement like that! LOL!
ReplyDeleteNo use not telling the truth about it. *shrugs*
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad you guys are my friends! I think this is one of the most honest blogs we've had in awhile. It's rather insightful to get serious every now and then, and really get to know someone. Thanks for opening up and sharing.
ReplyDeleteI'm always honest. That can be a problem sometimes LOL. But yeah...I'm sure glad I found you too. xox
ReplyDeleteEveryone has their issues..... it's just a matter of what you can handle.
ReplyDeleteMe? My issue is food. I could easily be an alcoholic, because it runs in my family and we are all addicted to something. *shrugs*
After my separation I took Ambien to help me sleep, and I was dependent on it. I was able to stop taking it, only because I took Ativan to help me sleep. Now I can't sleep if I don't take the Ativan.
But I know it could be worse.
The key is that he is functioning, right? There's a HUGE difference. My father was a functioning alcoholic. He never called in sick, never drove drunk and worked very hard his entire life. He was verbally abusive to all of us, but wasn't physically abusive. He had his demons, and now I know how depressed he was most of the time. But he worked himself to the bone providing for all of us.
It's such a hard situation.
The scripture you wrote today kind of follows along with this topic too.
ReplyDeleteMy grandfather was an alcoholic and so was my uncle. I guess I lucked out in that respect because the tendency does run in families. I can take or leave about anything...except people. I get addicted to people in my life.
ReplyDeleteI can get addicted to people too..... some friends tell me that I can be pretty high maintenance and intense sometimes. But they love me anyway! :)
ReplyDeleteToo honest. lmao! I know what you mean. Anymore, I'm like, "Do you REALLY want to know how my day is or should I just lie about it to make you happy?" I get some strange looks to that answer. lol!
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing how that happens. That was the prescribed reading, too- not something I went looking for!
ReplyDeleteI'm addicted to you guys here.
ReplyDeleteMe too!
ReplyDeleteMe, too!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI can't log in at work, so I use my cell phone to log in. LOL. How bad is that??
Oh no, you're going to be like that little old lady across the street who spent 20 minutes every day telling me EXACTLY how she was! *giggles*
ReplyDeleteSounds like me! lol!
ReplyDeletelol! You bet! I'll also be that crazy lady who collects dolls and lost cats, too. *snickers*
ReplyDeleteWell... truth be told... I remember you logging in from your cell phone, and that's how I figured it out!
ReplyDeleteLOL.
I use my cell too- too much!
ReplyDeleteAnd Abby- you're already that crazy cat lady who plays with dolls!
You can't be a crazy cat lady when you're married. That role is for spinsters, like me. LOL.
ReplyDeleteExcept I'm allergic to cats, so I'll be collecting fish.
Ill be the dog lady...........allergic to cats here too.
ReplyDeleteIt'll just get worse.
ReplyDeleteOh, I can be a crazy married cat lady. I'm already crazy now. =P
ReplyDeletelol!
ReplyDeleteI'm not really a cat person either- wonder what I'll be?
ReplyDeleteBirds?
ReplyDeleteIve already told my bf, when we get to Ore. I want another dog to keep my dog company. I can see a trend tho starting.......if the man dies or leaves.....more dogs will move in? uh oh
ReplyDeleteI like dogs. Never had a bird!
ReplyDeleteJust don't be like the ladies they have on Animal Police.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure their houses DO stink. *ugh* I can't say much. Mine doesn't smell all that great right now. Old fireplace from winter, boys (!), icky shoes....
ReplyDeleteWe've been there with the stinky boy stories before! I think I'm addicted to Febreeze!
ReplyDelete***UPDATE*** Ok, so we had another talk tonight and I think the situation is getting clearer to me. He is going out with a friend for dinner- to a restaurant with a bar. This friend won't think about stopping him from drinking, because the guy doesn't know about his problem. I asked him if he thought he could handle it and he said "sure- oh, I'll probably have a beer but that isn't a problem."
ReplyDeleteHe thinks he can control it. My comment back was "yes, you can control it- until you can't control it." He gave a little laugh, and then admitted I was probably right. I said "you know, you're going to get to the point that you will need to give it up totally." He agreed, but still thinks he can control it.
I can't give it up for him- I can't mother him (or smother him, however you see it), and I can't hold his hand every minute of the day. This is on him- he can sink or swim. All I can do is listen and be honest with my advice. I know it isn't easy for him- it won't be. If he hates me for it, he hates me. He has asked for honesty and I won't give him any less. But it is his demon, and I can't drive it out for him.
Do me a favor and pray for him, please- God has the power to drive it away, or at least bring him to the point of seeing the reality of things. I just hope it happens before something bad happens.
Only took me two days to figure that out- just keep reminding me I figured it out, ok?
ReplyDeleteMy guess? You knew it all along. *hugs*
ReplyDeleteProbably, but it is hard to admit to myself sometimes. I know, I'm addicted to believing in lost causes! LOL!
ReplyDeleteBut that makes you a good person.
ReplyDeleteI had a good talk with Sabrina today about it (thanks for filling your driving time talking, Sabrina!) and told her that I had to find where the line is between helping and enabling. I'm sure I'll find it, but it might take a while!
ReplyDeleteMy ex-husband was like that.
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference between being supportive and being their "mommy." There is a difference between being helpful and being a rescuer. Get help in defining those boundaries...Keeping some distance is not a bad idea right now, either...
You know we'll be praying...
It's so easy to fall into the mommy spot. They want you because you are a fixer, but then they also turn around and blame you when they fail. Or something happens..."why did you let me do that?" when you've been trying to stop them the whole time. Then we baby them, tell them it's ok, it's all gonna be ok...so they're free to do it again and run home to us. It's almost like they *know* you're there to pick up the pieces, so they don't feel responsible for what they did. I may not be saying that so it makes sense...?
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I could do that again. Or even make the decision to do it again. Because if I care for someone, I want to be that person. The Fixer. The one who they need. The one they go to. Trouble is, it's a burden at the same time.
Well, that's what you're going thru right now. The "when do I stop" part. I'm hoping he has his one beer and is done with it for the night. One step at a time.
Did he already go out? What happened?
He had two beers. No problem last night. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem, though that is what he would like to think.
ReplyDeleteI'm the same way Kat- so that makes perfect sense! The shitbox had problems after he left because I refused to rescue him any more. I left him to himself. So he didn't know what to do, or who to blame, when he failed. And failed.
I don't want to be that person, either. I have to find the balance. And I have to stay detached enough right now to not have my heart ripped out if something happens.
Well, he's aware. And he also knows you were there for him last time and may not like to have to be there next time. That's a good thing. He has to have a reason too.
ReplyDeleteI have discovered that some men are masters at turning tables. And if I ever did turn my back and refuse to help, he'd use that to make me feel guilty. It's like they know (somehow) all of your weaknesses and play them so well. That's one reason I don't open up anymore. Let them think I'm a cold mean woman. Better that than a patsy.
Well I'm proud of him today. He was invited out for St. Patrick's Day but said no. He ended up taking Savannah to her softball practice and he is going to help coach her team! Afterward, he said that was so much better than sitting in a bar. I just smiled. Baby steps!
ReplyDeleteGood for him! One day at a time.
ReplyDeleteexcellent! Savannah is way better than an old smelly bar.
ReplyDelete